Alderique:Institutu de la Llingua Mirandesa

Variante en mirandés

Teniendo en cuenta qu'actualmente'l mirandés tien wikipedia propia, ¿nun sedría meyor suprimir la versión mirandesa d'esti artículu (y d'otros)? --Etienfr 23:39, 13 payares 2010 (UTC)

O Usuário Mir é um Vândalo

O usuário Mir um indivíduo isolado que, em wikis de várias línguas (sempre com um nome Mir...qualquer coisa - en:User:Miranfree, ast:Usuariu:Miranfree, Mircommons) tenta convencer toda a gente de que os Mirandeses são um grupo étnico ou nacionalidade diferente da portuguesa. Costuma também colocar ligações externas para um partido separatista inexistente (e com dirigentes anónimos) e uma suposta bandeira provavelmente ambos de sua criação . A maneira como se expressa em português faz desconfiar que seja espanhol. Este Mir é um vândalo perigoso e deve ser bloqueado em todas as wikis. Veja-se o que lhe respondeu o usuário da wiki em inglês en:The Ogre (membro do en:WikiProject Portugal, do en:WikiProject Spain e do en:WikiProject Galicia; e com mais de 10000 edits):

My reasoning retrived from en:Talk:Mirandese language#Ethnic group, en:Talk:Terra de Miranda and en:Talk:Portugal/archive4#Mirandese nationality: "... regarding your opinion that the inhabitants of Miranda do Douro are a different nationality or ethnic group from the rest of the Portuguese, I have two types of comment:

1. Methodological, regarding what an encyclopedia should be. Methodologicaly, yours is not a correct approach to writing in an encyclopedia. You see, when there is no consensus, and respecting the NPOV rule of wikipedia (see: en:Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one" and this must be done "representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source". You have not done so. Furthermore, and I do know the literature and reality about national identity in Portugal (namely sociological, antropological and historical), I have no knowledge of any source presenting the Mirandese as a different ethnic group or nationality. So... you look like an isolated individual defending something nobody else says, namely the Mirandese. You just blumtly state that the Mirandese are a different nationality because they speak a different language (and what does "speak" mean? check these statistics) - this, as I shall elaborat in the next paragraph, is invalid, but, even more important given the fact that you are the only source for such a statement, is not sufficient for an encyclopedia! Imagine I decided to write in the article about God, that God exists because I believe in it (or maybe evem some more people...). Then someone would decide to blank me and write that God does not exist because he or she does not believe in it! That is why the article must present all reliably sourced points of view, stating that these people think this and those people think that. Do you understand? I reppeat, an encyclopedia is not about what the world is but about what people say (and discuss) the world is!
2. Substantive, regarding the de facto statements you present about the Mirandese. Substantively, your statements, besides unsourced, are basic (therefore rapidly refutable) and just plain wrong. Do understand me. I have nothing against the Mirandese and, personally, I don't give a dam if their are to be a different national or ethnic group or not! If that's what they whant to be - fine by me! But the fact is that I have never read that statement anywhere, there are no political movements or organizations deffending that position and I strongly believe that if you ask the Mirandese if they are Portuguese or not, they'll say they are Portuguese - they are Portuguese from Miranda, with particular cultural traits, traditions and linguistic heritage. Even the official site of the Câmara Municipal is in Portuguese, not Mirandese, the whole history section clearly states the integration of Miranda in Portuguese history, society and culture, and there is only a very small reference to the Mirandese language. Even a site as the one about Mirandese language by the Linguistics Center of the Classical Univerty of Lisbon (Sítio de I Mirandés), that clearly means to deffend the language and the cultural traditions of Miranda, never presents the Mirandese as a different ethnic or national group. Of course the Mirandese have"a language and a culture of its own", as FilipeS said, so do many other inhabitants of other regions of Portugal (if I say "Ú grade azoigou e foi átupir na manta das tanerifas" do you understand me? Well it's a phrase in the variety of the Portuguese language spoken in Madeira, albeit very archaic; in fact only in the Madeira and the Azores have ever had separatist movements, and their reasoning, mind you, was never one of cultural differentiation, but of geographical differentiation and political antipaty to the left-wing predominace in continental Portugal during the revolucionary process - do you, by any chance, know the literature about this?). That does not make them an en:ethnic group or a en:nationality (as you can see in the respective articles, these are not simple problematics...) - there are many nations that have internal ethnic and linguistic differentation, on the other hand there are different nations that share ethnic, cultural and linguitic heritage. And you even mention en:Race! Do you even know what you are talking about? Even if I could accept, and I can not, the implicits in your statement about Whites and Blacks (even in en:Talk:Mirandese language#Ethnic group), that is to say, the simplist way in which you speak about such complex concepts, let me tell you that there are also nations that have internal racial differentiation and different nations that have the same racial make up!

Concluding... the Mirandese are not a different ethnicity or nationality. And by the way, I'm not a "salazarianism", as you accused me in my talk page (what you wrote is close to bashing - see en:Wikipedia:No personal attacks - and en:propaganda - your name, Miranfree, is already a political demand: "We speak a different language, we have our costumes, we are a different nationality. Stop to the portugueses salazarianism. Respect to the mirandese nationality."). Please stop your unfounded statements and edits. Thank you." The Ogre 19:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ajudem a parar este vândalo! 62.169.100.102 20h01min de 3 de Agosto de 2007 (UTC)

Voi tornar esti artículu al asturianu normativu y poner un enllaz al artículu en mirandés. --Vsuarezp 19:00, 30 avientu 2007 (UTC)